| Author | Message | ||
     Brendan Campbell New member Username: Brencam Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 |
I'm seriously evaluating PWP Pro and Lightzone as replacements for PS elements. (16 Bit processing is important for some pics and I don't want the bloat/cost of PS/CS2). I've read Den's info re 3 tone mapping and it appears very powerful - albeit a bit laborious? OTOH Lightzone introduces the zone metaphor/zone transformations for digital image processing and is very user friendly. (FWIW - my first impression is that Lightzone is much slower (Java implementation) that PWP Pro). However I admire the PWP approach and support forum and am leaning towards PWP for my purchase. My question for experienced PWP users is: are there any benefits to the 3 tone PWP mapping approach here - will it render a better final image? IMHO it seems like a bit more work initially, but I'd probably get used to that over time. I'd appreciate any feedback here. BTW - Den's docs are great - however it would be great if they could be packaged as downloadable pdf docs - even for a small fee. BrendanC | ||
| Elie Dinur Member Username: Elied Post Number: 161 Registered: 07-2003 |
I can't really compare the two applications because I've never used Lightzone. However, in the post from a few days ago by Lars Gustavson, Lars linked to a screen capture of the Lightzone tool. I noted that the user interface is through sliders. PWP's interface both in the mask creation and in the tone mapping stages is through curves which afford far greater control and customization and the ability to localize the editing within the image. Add to this the ability to change editing spaces (RGB/HSV/HSL). The tradeoff is control vs. time. I have lately been playing with two freeware applications; Photomatix Basic and Raw Therapee which has a great Lab space Highlight/Shadows tool. Both are good, fast(er) and convenient, but I've concluded that for critical work I'll come back to PWP. Elie | ||
| Maciej Tomczak Member Username: Tomczak Post Number: 299 Registered: 08-2004 |
I think that the main difference between the curves (or 'Zones' or levels methaphores) is that curves understand 'tonal neighbourhood' - not the physical one (i.e. each pixel is adjusted based on its own value only - disregarding how bright the neighbours are: they may belong to some other part of the curve). Using curves through blurred tonal masks (i.e. Dan's technique or Shaddows/Highlights in PS) adresses the physical continuity - though not without problems (e.g. halos, marked transitions between masks) Dan Margulis penned a two-part article on it: http://www.dl-c.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=7677#POST7677 Maciej Tomczak www.phototramp.com | ||
| Maciej Tomczak Member Username: Tomczak Post Number: 300 Registered: 08-2004 |
Here are the direct links to Margulis' articles: http://ep.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=D isplay&ARTICLE_ID=212330 http://ep.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=D isplay&ARTICLE_ID=216408 Maciej Tomczak www.phototramp.com | ||
| Kevin Elliott Member Username: Kevgermany Post Number: 449 Registered: 09-2004 |
I think margulis' articles go to show why a process like Den's 3 tone technique is so necessary for PWP users. The info's there i the scan or raw file, no question, but processing it often lowers contrast where we need it, increases saturation in the shadows and loses detail in the highlights. A transform like Den's 3 tone would be really appreciated (yes, I know that I've asked for it before...)as it'd save a lot of time, while still giving us the necessary control over the image processing. | ||
| den Member Username: Den Post Number: 94 Registered: 03-2006 |
BrendanC and others... Ironically, the question that was posed here was also one I had, although my only contact with LightZone is what was posted by LarsG here: http://www.dl-c.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=19151#POST19151 A PWP3.5.0.10 workflow equivalent to LightZone-ToneMapper1 was determined and using it, enhanced to preferences, LarsG's bridge image, taking about 40 minutes to do. A '3Tone Range Adjustment' image was also done, taking about 30 minutes to do. The comparison and general workflow summaries are here [3-200KB images need to load]: http://www.ncplus.net/~birchbay/tutorials/LTGs_bridge2/01.htm Preferences, nuances, and skill were/are the same for both images to the best of my intentions... 'Which is the better image?' may not be as important as illustrating PWP's flexibility/capability limited only by one's tolerance for manual intensity and understanding of image data processing. | ||
| Brendan Campbell New member Username: Brencam Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 |
Den - Thank you for doing this - this is interesting stuff. FWIW I'm new to PWP Pro and I've spent about 2 days with your 3 Tone masking concepts and am still struggling with it? (I ended up with some bad halos when using my own images - the images provided with your workflow examples seem to be of too low a resolution to clearly see the differences) There are definitely some steps that can be hard to retrace when things go awry and the parameters are all very image specific. Given the amount of labor involved I'm curious as to what percent of images warrant this amount of post processing effort. Also how common is the use of this approach within the PWP Pro community? Thx again for you efforts/contribution? Again a downloadable pdf version of tour workflows would be a great help to us newbies - even for a small fee. BrendanC | ||
| Maciej Tomczak Member Username: Tomczak Post Number: 301 Registered: 08-2004 |
There already is a quick and reasonably interactive way of masked tonal corrections in PWP. Though it lacks the precision of Den's technique, or the pretty interface and some controls of Shadow/Higlights, it works too and has the advantage that you see the areas affected. It more or less follows the Margulis take: 1) Open mask tool on an an image to be corrected; create quick tonal mask with a Brightness Curve (N.B. it uses HSV-V for brightness) to separate the shaddows and highlights and leave midtones as 50% gray mask - images need different curves but something like [0 10] [2 10] [3 5] [7 5] [8 0] [10 0] may work. 2) Blur the mask 3) With the mask still open, open the Grey/Brightness transformation. 4) Adjust the Amounts, Preserve, Colours Space and the mask blur radius (by Mask Undo and blurring again with different radius) to taste. Other variations are possible such as starting the mask with an extracted channel (like Margulis) or using curves instead of Brightness (but it would have to be repeated twice - one can't adjust both unmasked highlights and masked shaddows in one run with curves). Maciej Tomczak www.phototramp.com | ||
| Tony Gamble Member Username: Tonygamble Post Number: 177 Registered: 04-2003 |
"Again a downloadable pdf version of tour workflows would be a great help to us newbies - even for a small fee." Seconded. I have attempted to print out Den's articles as my memory is too weak to remember all the instructions. They are in a folder next to my studio PC. However, and I realise this is a good technique when reading them on a live web link, the cross references to other techniques become hard to follow when dealing with pages in a folder. I for one would be more than happy to pay a fee for a version of Den's assorted techniques that I could print out and file. If Den does not feel inclined to produce this sort of variant on his papers then maybe someone else around here had the knowhow and the two of you could share the proceeds. Rgds Tony London UK | ||
| den Member Username: Den Post Number: 98 Registered: 03-2006 |
Regrettably, there are nuances and artistry associated with the 3Tone Adjustment Procedures that are not readily apparent to new and occasional users of this approach. The quality of the work-a-long images are less then print ready but still should provide enough resolution to indicate what is happening as you follow a workflow series of screen shots... at least that is the intent... if you are not able to get reasonable results that match the workflows... then something is amiss and unfortunately, it is not the tutorial!... keep on trying and after a reasonable effort in this with no success, post a question on the message board or contract me. re: pdf's... while this would be nice/convenient for others, their generation/upkeep would strain my resources and interests... html web posting was/is the choice made to freely present an evolving approach to image data manipulation as I understand it... IMPORTANT:... if you are having difficulty understanding or getting results from the 3Tone Adjustment Procedures... than start your image data manipulations with MaciejT's suggested workflow... as an additional hint, if the image has good mid-tone brightness than in Step3, use Composite-SoftLight blending to increase contrasts as an option to the Brightness Curve transform... and if the image has reasonable mid-tones but dark shadows and light highlights, 'Invert' the mask and use the Composite-SoftLight blending to lighten shadows and darken highlights.... For your convenience, here is his suggested masking curve file [in text form]: Curve 1.0 npts 6 style spline histexpand 0 point 0 0 0 point 1 51 0 point 2 77 128 point 3 179 128 point 4 204 255 point 5 255 255 end To help understand brightening and darkening gamma curves, apply the following curves in the Brightness Curve or Color Curves transforms, and relocate the mid-curve control point to preference while monitoring the changes in Preview. A +10% brightening mid-tone [50%] gamma curve file [in text form]: Curve 1.0 npts 3 style spline histexpand 0 point 0 0 0 point 1 128 153 point 2 255 255 end A -15% darkening mid-tone [50%] gamma curve file [in text form]: Curve 1.0 npts 3 style spline histexpand 0 point 0 0 0 point 1 128 89 point 2 255 255 end To convert to *.crv files: copy the curve text into NotePad or WordPad, do a ‘save’ naming the file. Then change the file extension from *.txt to *.crv. If you are using an earlier version of PW than 3.5, delete the line, ‘histexpand 0’ from the text. | ||
| den Member Username: Den Post Number: 99 Registered: 03-2006 |
Corrections/clarifications to above post... re: for questions 'contract me' --> contact me If the added suggested to use Composite-Softlight blending confuses... then stick with the Brightness Curve transform until you have an understanding of brightening/darkening/contrast curves.... The brightening/darkening curves are meant to be applied individually. In reality, one can become the other as the mid-curve control point is moved vertically at [50,y] above or below the diagonal that extends from the lower left corner [0,0] of the 10x10 grid and ending at the upper right corner [100,100]. For an explanation of how to locate curve points see: http://www.dl-c.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=17955#POST17955 | ||
| Tony Gamble Member Username: Tonygamble Post Number: 178 Registered: 04-2003 |
Den, "re: pdf's... while this would be nice/convenient for others, their generation/upkeep would strain my resources and interests... html web posting was/is the choice made to freely present an evolving approach to image data manipulation as I understand it..." This I know and understand. The reason why I said it was in the vague hope that it might flesh out someone who had the knowhow and time to convert your excellent pages into something I/we could get on to paper. Maybe I am not yet adept enough at using my WinXP studio computer. But I have yet to find a way of swopping screens so I can read your instructions and emulate them on my copy of PWP. Hence my need to print out something I can put into a folder. Maybe my problem is enhanced by the fact that my studio computer is not 'on line' - and my on line computer only has a black and white printer. Anyway this is not the purpose of this thread, so I'll shut up now..... Have a good weekend. Rgds Tony |
